Jay Van Till responded to a post providing Arminius' comments on the authorship of sin and asked this opening question. For myself, it is very straightforward. It is an unequivocal yes. My reply goes further. I not only believe that, I will take it further and state there is not anything, any action, any occurrence now, before or to come that has not been ordained of the LORD. Now, that does not lend my sympathies to the necessity of determinism. Instead, as with Picirilli, I make the distinction between certainty and necessity. I have come to believe that is one of the chief stumbling stones between Calvinists and Arminians… a little removed from the original question but as Jay stated originally, I'm not being sneaky, I am leading somewhere.
Thursday, May 20, 2010
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
8 comments:
Good show.
God created everything.
Now, for the second.
Are you an Open Theist or do you believe God knows everything that will happen before it occurs?
Jay,
I am wondering if you actually read my post. Could an open theist posit what I stated? Now, having got that out of the way and affirming the LORD's omniscience, do you believe that what the LORD has decreed is both certain and necessary?
Ok then. Just making sure.
As to certainty:
I would say then that in God's decree to create angels and men fallible, He was not caught by surprise, knowing the end from the beginning He certainly knew exactly what the men and angels would do. Isa 41
Now, in His decree to create men and angels fallible, He is not the author of sin. You must also admit that God made them fallible.
For the Arminian to say then a Calvinists makes God the author of sin when he says, "God has decreed all things" is both unfounded and neglects the more salient points.
Which are: Would man have fallen had God not made him fallible?
The answer is obviously no. God could, if obedience were the only action he wanted, made them infallible.
That brings us to the next question: Did God have a purpose in making men and angels fallible?
I believe the answer to that is obvious as well. Yes.
And, since God knew certainly what men would do and God having made men fallible with a purpose, to an end in mind, what man would do was in God's plan.
I am sure you have come across a similar argument before, if not the same.
Jay stated:
For the Arminian to say then a Calvinists makes God the author of sin when he says, "God has decreed all things" is both unfounded and neglects the more salient points.
I reply:
That is not particularly what Arminians suggest although I would admit that some do. Instead, Reformation Arminians agree that the LORD decrees all things. Keep in mind we sometimes discuss ordainment with Calvinism in view as decreed and predestined i.e. determinism. We reject that suggestion and as Arminius suggested, if a Calvinist states that the LORD predestined some to glory and others to eternal damnation through his determination of all things, then such would be a de facto authorship of sin.
It is important to keep in mind that with regard to the decrees of God, both the Reformed Calvinist and Reformed Arminian agree that everything falls within the LORD's decree. We suggest He permits or allows certain things rather than determining them.
" if a Calvinist states that the LORD predestined some to glory and others to eternal damnation through his determination of all things, then such would be a de facto authorship of sin."
Obviously, I would reject the logic there on the ground that it does not follow.
Skipping to the end "glory and damnation" is not where the argument is. It is in creation.
If God made men fallible, infallibly knowing what would be the end from the beginning, he chose to create fallible men that would sin and end up in damnation. All this God knew before he created. This does not make God the author of sin.
If God being the creator of SATAN does not make God the author of sin, which it doesn't, then decreeing all things does not.
Look at all that Satan has done. From whom did he get the abilities? Who sees and knows all that Satan does? Who could stop Satan instantly?
If this does not make God the author of sin, which it doesn't, then nothing else could.
Jay wrote:
If God made men fallible, infallibly knowing what would be the end from the beginning, he chose to create fallible men that would sin and end up in damnation. All this God knew before he created. This does not make God the author of sin.
I reply:
I would have no objection with this thought. In fact most Arminians would agree and maintain you are presenting the Arminian case. There is no disagreement regarding omniscience and foreknowledge. Instead, the contention is with the determinations of God with regard to the thoughts and acts of men. If the LORD has decreed and determined the reprobation of men as opposed to the decree of electing other men, then He determined the very acts of sin for which He then condemns them. That is our objection.
"then He determined the very acts of sin for which He then condemns them. That is our objection."
In all honesty, you need to develop your thoughts on this or refer me to something specific to this, because I absolutely see no difference between us.
"Instead, Reformation Arminians agree that the LORD decrees all things."
What is your all things' compared to my 'all things,' because my 'all things' includes 'all things,' men, angels, actions, thoughts, the number of our days, birds, hairs, the end, the beginning, etc.
Decree does not mean just to determine. It also encompasses allowing, delegating and enjoining. The LORD decreed that man would have dominion (sovereignty!) over creation. Consider the following.
And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter
These were events that were decreed by the LORD but never intended for man to do. It is an anthropological rejection of what men did expressed in a manner that we can understand. Certainly, the LORD never determined or desired that these men do the things they did yet because God is omniscient, these events occur with his foreknowledge hence His decree.
Now suppose the LORD had determined that these men do these horrible things having created them reprobate and the sins of them designed in the mind of God and with causal certainty (1st or 2nd causality is irrelevant here). We would view such a thing as authorship requiring accountability yet in determinist theology there is no such thing as accountability for the author. By this logic, Arminius considers such a determinist to make God the author of sin and I concur.
Post a Comment