Saturday, February 23, 2008

Kangaroo Attacked By Angry Observer


Ben (kangaroodort) over at Arminian Perspectives linked into a Calvinist "critique" ( Triablogue: Captain Kangaroo ) of one of his posts I thought was interesting. It is unfortunate that our Calvinist brother chose such a sanctimonious manner in addressing Ben's well thought out address. I am not sure I can take the time to respond in this spat but it is a sad reflection on the state of Calvinist apologetics to witness such a callous disregard for scriptural humility. It is my hope that we Arminians can reflect on this example and take the high road in our methods and seasoning lest we find ourselves measured by the same response given to brother Ben.

Sunday, February 17, 2008

… A follow-up on An Opinion.

A participant on a discussion board asked the following inquiry regarding something I had posted here several days ago.

I was reading a bit of your blog and stumbled across this in the first few entries...

Over these same several years I have also noted an entitlement attitude among Calvinists meaning they have staked out the position that they are the bastion of truth and take an offensive posture with regard to non-Calvinists. Many souls who disagree with Calvinist doctrine are "forced" to defend their non-Calvinist beliefs to a minority sect in Christendom of whom most Christians reject with regard to their unique doctrine. This situation should be reversed and it should be the Calvinist who must convince and defend his doctrines to the overwhelming body of Christ who see no comfort or truth in much of these doctrines. In other words, Calvinists do not get and do not deserve a free ride in Christendom with regard to what they insist is the truth. They are to be put under the spotlight, on the defensive and insisted upon to make a convincing case for their doctrines rather than continuously attack the doctrines of much of the body of Christ.

Can you explain what you mean further? Are you saying they have an "elitist" attitude?....Because I beg to differ. I can give you an example of what happened to me on an Arminian board. It wasn't pretty...and this was from people who claimed to be Christians.

And was much of the body of Christ Arminian in the 1500's?

Also, can you show that with people who UNDERSTAND both of these theologies THOROUGHLY, they believe "the Arminian way?" I find it telling that in my thread "Used to be" that it overwhelmingly went from Arminian to Calvinist, and not the other way around.


My reply on that board was as follows.

Thank you for your inquiry. The thought I am conveying through the use of "entitlement" is one of historical preeminence within the Protestant tradition. Calvinist apologetics begin from a perspective that assumes not an elitist view (although that could be shown to be a significant problem among several internet based Calvinist ministries) but from an historical Protestant or Evangelical outlook. The term "Reformed" for example has been co opted by Calvinists to represent Calvinistic dogmas. The phrase "doctrines of Grace" has been high jacked from the ecumenical body of Christ which itself embraces scriptural doctrines of grace and instead is used to represent unique and particular doctrines not adhered to by the significant majority of Christians. The Calvinist faith has a long and storied history and has played a fundamental role in taking evangelical Christianity away from and freeing from the influence and stifling practices of it's Roman predecessors. Early Calvinists and other Reformers deserve much credit for this and it should not be overlooked. However, this is not a license to project absolutism in the body yet Calvinism claims this for itself and views those who differ within the Protestant tradition to have strayed from the foundation of truth as defined by it's particular doctrines. Instead, I maintain Calvinism must defend itself and be denied preeminence if only because most Christians do not identify nor accept it's doctrines.

As to how much of the body of Christ was Arminian in the 16th century, I would answer that much of the body of Christ was not Calvinist in that age. Arminian pertains to a particular view established in response to what we regard as improper doctrine in the Calvinist camp. I would further address that inquiry by asking how much of the body of Christ was Calvinist in the 15th century and how much is Calvinist today?

With regard to your thread, I may have misread it as I thought you were asking Calvinists in particular and as such I refrained from addressing your central inquiry. I hold strongly to the opinion that Calvinism has to be taught from a systematic viewpoint rather than gained from reading the scriptures. Now I realize that many Calvinists will disagree with that opinion but I think it is sustainable by examining the arguments and language employed by Calvinists (particularly here in this internet media).

I hope that helped address your inquiry.

Blessings in Christ

Trav


What is This New Perspective Thing?

I noticed a comment on one of the discussion boards concerning the "New Perspectives of Paul", in particular the writings of N.T. Wright. I have not studied a great deal on this matter however I have dabble enough into it to have serious questions. In any event, I thought it might be profitable to gain some direct insight from the writings of N.T. Wright himself in order to approach the matter with an open ear to the issue. There tends to be an amazing degree of internal bias in the church regarding this issue and I have determined myself to not take another man's word on these matters, instead examining the issue and a myriad of writings. The following is the opening of an address Mr. Wright made in a 2003 conference.


New Perspectives on Paul

N. T. Wright, Bishop of Durham

Introduction

I am grateful for the invitation to this conference, and for the sensitive way in which the organizers responded to my comments on the initial outline of the programme. I am aware that fresh interpretations of Paul, including my own, have caused controversy in evangelical circles, and particularly reformed circles. My own name has been linked with proposals which have been variously dismissed, scorned, vilified and anathematized. Having heard the papers yesterday morning and afternoon I suggested to David Searle that I should take two hours not one to say what needs to be said just now; but when I heard Tony Lane last night I realized I would need, like Cardinal Seripando at Trent, two days to establish my own orthodoxy. We shall see.

There are several different agendas coming together at this point. The issue is sometimes treated as a variation on old modernist controversies, at other times as a clash between a Christian absolutism and a religious relativism, and at other times as a variation on a perceived protestant/catholic divide (or even a high-church/low-church divide), with the so-called new perspective focusing on ecclesiology rather than soteriology and being condemned for so doing. And that's just the beginning. From time to time correspondents draw my attention to various websites on which you can find scathing denunciations of me for abandoning traditional protestant orthodoxy and puzzled rejoinders from people who have studied my work and know that I'm not saying what many of my critics say I'm saying. Go to amazon.com and look at the comments which anonymous correspondents have appended to some of my books.

Faced with that kind of problem, it would take a whole book to unpick the strands, to disentangle them from other issues, to explain what the so-called New Perspective is and isn't, and to argue exegetically step by step for a particular reading of Paul. Clearly I can't do that here. What I shall do instead is to make two opening remarks about my aim and method on the one hand and the problem of the New Perspective on the other, and then to attempt once more to say briefly what I think needs to be said about Paul and justification, sharpening up the issues here and there.

First, as to aim and method. When I began research on Paul, thirty years ago this autumn, my aim was to understand Paul in general and Romans in particular better than I had done before, as part of my heartfelt and lifelong commitment to scripture, and to the sola scriptura principle, believing that the better the church understands and lives by scripture the better its worship, preaching and common life will be. I was conscious of thereby standing methodologically in the tradition of the reformers, for whom exegesis was the lifeblood of the church, and who believed that scripture should stand over against all human traditions. I have not changed this aim and this method, nor do I intend to. Indeed, the present controversy, from my own point of view, often appears to me in terms of a battle for the Reformers' aims and methods – going back to scripture over against all human tradition – against some of their theological positions (and, equally, those of their opponents, since I believe that often both sides were operating with mistaken understandings of Paul). I believe that Luther, Calvin, and many of the others would tell us to read scripture afresh, with all the tools available to us – which is after all what they did – and to treat their own doctrinal conclusions as important but not as important as scripture itself. That is what I have tried to do, and I believe I am honoring them thereby.

The full text of this address can be found here.

Saturday, February 16, 2008


Our Words or Lack of Words Do Haunt Us

Have you wondered what significance a man's last words have? I cannot say that I have an answer to that question and here in this frenzied internet environment, our words can sometimes haunt us for their lack of reflection amidst this two dimensional simplistic realm. We cannot read the nuances private to a man's thoughts and we certainly cannot know a man's heart. In this scarred world of internet apologetics, we commit ourselves to what we fancy without knowing what the day will bring. One certainty pervades our very existence; The LORD knows the very number of our hairs and the days and minutes of our lives. For that reason alone our words should be carefully measured and our opinions kept as opinions and not dogmatic declarations. I have battled with a number of souls over these years in this world we log onto. For most of those battles, we picked up our marbles and returned to our "other" reality nonetheless for wear knowing each openly embraces Jesus Christ. Then there are those few souls who part with enmity of sorts against the other or a whole class of others having made judgments that were questionable. Of course we return to the fray and we make our points and our counterpoints until … there is no point or counterpoint or even a hand to guide one's thoughts to the page however ill advised those thoughts might be.

A man died on Wednesday and I cannot say that I knew him other than to state I did not like him. I cared nothing for his rhetoric, his ill advised opinions cast as certainties and his embrace of a sectarian schism in place of the truth. Even still he declared Jesus Christ as his savior and in spite of his rejection of the faith I and millions of others share, an Arminian faith, I kept him in mind as a brother in Christ. His last post on CARM was the following:

Arminianism is the antithesis of the gospel … Yeah...I believe that unregenerate man's religion is arminian or some form of arminianism. It is a self righteous religion just as all other religions of the world. Arminianism is the antithesis of the gospel. I know most would disagree with me, however most unbelievers would. – "Nicholas Heath"

My last post to him was a blank sheet. I did not bless him and that is to my discredit.

Wednesday, February 13, 2008

A Great Big Tree!

This is a great site for those looking to explore the denominational tree of their particular church background. It is amazing how many branches we have in this relationship called Christianity. Click on the expanded tree of our Methodist faith to enlarge the chart.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/trees.asp




An Opinion
After several years of challenging Calvinists on various internet forums, I have come to a conclusion that I think is irrefutable. Calvinism suffers from a plethora of neophytes who having garnered a year or two of Calvinist “experience” present themselves ready to slay the Arminian dragon. Unfortunately, they seem to lack the ability to step beyond rhetoric and empty polemics all the while constructing and re-constructing the same tired straw men that have been refuted time and time again. Now this dilemma is not entirely the fault of these neophytes. They have been schooled in this purpose and encouraged by the rhetoric of their mentors, most of whom are internet based or associated with internet-active ministries. I think it is becoming clear after 450 years of practice that one of the essential doctrines of Calvinism is opposition to anything not Calvinistic. Of course, polemics are engaged on all sides of these issues and certainly by myself however I think it would be accurate to state that the Arminian camp (with some exceptions) has not built it’s opposition to TULIP on rhetoric and polemical arguments. We see clear contradictions in the scriptures if the Calvinist paradigm is to be accepted.

Over these same several years I have also noted an entitlement attitude among Calvinists meaning they have staked out the position that they are the bastion of truth and take an offensive posture with regard to non-Calvinists. Many souls who disagree with Calvinist doctrine are “forced” to defend their non-Calvinist beliefs to a minority sect in Christendom of whom most Christians reject with regard to their unique doctrine. This situation should be reversed and it should be the Calvinist who must convince and defend his doctrines to the overwhelming body of Christ who see no comfort or truth in much of these doctrines. In other words, Calvinists do not get and do not deserve a free ride in Christendom with regard to what they insist is the truth. They are to be put under the spotlight, on the defensive and insisted upon to make a convincing case for their doctrines rather than continuously attack the doctrines of much of the body of Christ.

Sunday, February 10, 2008


Taking Up My Cross

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Mt 16:24 AV)

On one of the discussion boards I browse through, I noticed a comment by a hard determinist (extremist in my view) who made a bold statement regarding this passage. He indicated that Arminians use this verse to somehow justify a free will mindset focused on doing good works. The comment struck me as uniquely ignorant of how Arminians and most of the body of Christ view this passage. Of course there are variations upon this theme and differences in how the verse should be applied to us however I have never conversed with a fellow Arminian who viewed the passage as focused on works born out of our "free will".

I have been churched with the understanding that to deny oneself is to deny the flesh or the ways of the world or perhaps our own notions of what is good and pleasing to the LORD. Upon denying self, we embrace Christ and Him crucified, hence the cross reference made by Christ. We essentially become sacrificed to what is good and Holy, that being Jesus.

John Wesley offered the following comment on this verse in his Explanatory Notes.

If any man be willing to come after me - None is forced; but if any will be a Christian, it must be on these terms, Let him deny himself, and take up his cross - A rule that can never be too much observed: let him in all things deny his own will, however pleasing, and do the will of God, however painful. Should we not consider all crosses, all things grievous to flesh and blood, as what they really are, as opportunities of embracing God's will at the expense of our own? And consequently as so many steps by which we may advance toward perfection? We should make a swift progress in the spiritual life, if we were faithful in this practice. Crosses are so frequent, that whoever makes advantage of them, will soon be a great gainer. Great crosses are occasions of great improvement: and the little ones, which come daily, and even hourly, make up in number what they want in weight. We may in these daily and hourly crosses make effectual oblations of our will to God; which oblations, so frequently repeated, will soon amount to a great sum. Let us remember then (what can never be sufficiently inculcated) that God is the author of all events: that none is so small or inconsiderable, as to escape his notice and direction. Every event therefore declares to us the will of God, to which thus declared we should heartily submit. We should renounce our own to embrace it; we should approve and choose what his choice warrants as best for us. Herein should we exercise ourselves continually; this should be our practice all the day long. We should in humility accept the little crosses that are dispensed to us, as those that best suit our weakness. Let us bear these little things, at least for God's sake, and prefer his will to our own in matters of so small importance. And his goodness will accept these mean oblations; for he despiseth not the day of small things.

Saturday, February 09, 2008


Christian Fatalism - Part I

“Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.” (Lu 9:60 AV)

For the past 2,000 years Christians have stepped into this world having been liberated from the shackles of sinful desires and preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Souls have heard the message and many have turned from the pleasures of a season to an eternal life in Christ Jesus. Many more have refused and stayed upon their path of sin and death oblivious to the consequences of their choices. Regardless of those outcomes, the faithful servant of Jesus, obedient to the commission of Christ, has engaged the Gospel, presented it, preached it, declared it, promoted it and laid it out so that the power of God through His Word will bring salvation to men.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1Co 1:18 AV)

How could any of us have found the peace and joy of abiding in Christ if the preacher had not preached? Is this not a matter of life and death so that if one soul called to spread His Word should sit on his hands, men would perish? In the Old Testament Prophets, The LORD charged Ezekiel with the responsibilities of His watchman, one who declares and warns His people. Should the watchman sit still and not voice his responsibilities, the scriptures tell us that the blood of the people shall be upon his hands (Ezekiel 33). That is a sobering thought with regard to our responsibilities in this world. It also clearly establishes the means by which the LORD works with men in a manner our Calvinist brethren derisively refer to as synergism. The Apostle Paul exhorts the brethren along similar lines in the following passage.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Ro 10:12-17 AV)

I have been pursuing this line of thought on the CARM discussion boards recently with the premise being the preaching of the Gospel is essential to salvation. At the same time if this Gospel is not preached, men will perish. I do not think most rational Calvinists would oppose these notions but there is more to this inquiry. What happens if one is disobedient to the commission to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ? From the Calvinist perspective of determinism, all those whom the LORD has elected from before the foundations of the world will be saved otherwise the LORD's decree will fail, an impossibility. Assuming this Calvinist position is reasonably stated, it demands an examination. If one disobeys the commission to preach His Word yet elect souls are saved nonetheless, can this determinism be defined as anything other than theistic fatalism? Many Calvinists (hyper-Calvinist souls excluded) reject the idea that their beliefs are fatalist claiming instead that the LORD's predestination of all things does not nullify man's responsibility for what the LORD has predestined. Aside from the conflict such a statement presents with regard to predestination vs. willful choice, it does not address how souls are saved aside from the preaching of the Gospel unless theistic fatalism is embraced rather than held at distance.

Now, from the Arminian perspective, there is no conflict because it is readily accepted that souls are saved through the preaching of the Gospel and souls perish when the Gospel is silenced. This is why the commission to preach the Word of God is so solemn and essential. In the words of Jesus …

"Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly [is] plenteous, but the labourers [are] few;" (Mt 9:37 AV)

Friday, February 01, 2008


I came across another interesting quiz this evening that "tests" theological worldviews. I tried taking the 63 question test without reading my biases into the questions. It came out much as expected being a Wesleyan Arminian although Reformed Evangelical came in second. The results and link to the site are below.


Quiz results:

What's your theological worldview?

You scored as a Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan

You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavily by John Wesley and the Methodists.


Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan


82%

Reformed Evangelical


68%

Emergent/Postmodern


64%

Neo orthodox


64%

Fundamentalist


57%

Charismatic/Pentecostal


39%

Classical Liberal


36%

Roman Catholic


21%

Modern Liberal


11%


Take this quiz here

Sunday, January 27, 2008


I popped back into an old haunt last night just to take a look around. I found Paltalk several years ago after the demise of Firetalk and a growing disgust with the text chat of AOL Online. The funny thing about Paltalk is that it was just as bad if not worse than the theological neophytes fueling so many "cock fights" on AOL but like so many of my fellow internet addicts, I hung around, an observer and occasional commentator. I never did have much to say but I sure typed a lot! Well, last night was the advent of an epiphany of sorts. It's still the same as when I left! Imagine that. Willy 162, the Calvinist character that "woke up saved" was still there with his theological "no slop" room and the poor souls who don't realize that Jesus is the LORD were still trying to entice room numbers in competition with the Universalist All Paths To Jesus Eternity folks who have their own revised bible consisting of three verses. It was too late in the evening for Matt Slick to be there telling listeners that he knew what he was talking about because he has a Masters degree from Westminster Seminary and you don't! There was no James White aka Dr. Oakley chastising people for suggesting he debate people who do not have the theological pedigree he enjoys even though he acquired his out of the seminary equivalent of a large box of CrackerJack. Yet, there were several familiar names I had long forgotten. There was still the "kick back" Christian room with many new names and a smattering of old familiar ones. I did not see Gina Dee around who was one of the sane voices nor Potters Freedom, a reasonable Reformed pastor. Most disappointing was that I did not see any sign of that old curmudgeon Promoe conducting one of his infamously absurd circuses parodying Oneness Pentecostalism or some giant straw man construction of Calvinist doctrine. After a few minutes, I clicked Paltalk off and went to bed. I might return but now that I've had a vision of what Paltalk is still like, it might be a while.

Edited to add: I did run across Promoe on Paltalk last night and he has tamed himself somewhat. I enjoyed the brief discussion and he was quite cordial towards me and I wish him nothing but blessings in Christ. 2/8/08

Saturday, January 26, 2008

Who's Your Theological Daddy?

Now I've gone and done it. My next step is to go to Barnes & Nobles or Amazon and find a good read concerning Karl Barth. I must admit I have read next to nothing of the gentleman so I cannot speak for his theology however in taking this test I discovered that Barth must be my theological daddy of sorts. Now I generally do not take these kinds of exercises with any great seriousness but my curiosity is piqued. I wonder what I shall find. I ran across this test from a link on another wonderful blog located at Arminian Perspectives.

The results of my test?

Which theologian are you? You scored as a Karl Barth The daddy of 20th Century theology. You perceive liberal theology to be a disaster and so you insist that the revelation of Christ, not human experience, should be the starting point for all theology.

Karl Barth


93%

Anselm


87%

Martin Luther


80%

John Calvin


73%

Jonathan Edwards


67%

Friedrich Schleiermacher


53%

Charles Finney


40%

Augustine


33%

Jürgen Moltmann


27%

Paul Tillich


27%


Take this Test

Monday, January 14, 2008



Choosing to Obey and Irresistible Too?

As is often the case during my lunch break today I found myself exchanging questions with a Calvinist fellow over another never ending word game topic. For as long as I have been exploring the often sharp differences between Calvinists and Arminians I have been fascinated with the concept of choice. Not being a libertarian free will advocate, naturally I shy from the phrase free will if it is attached to the baggage of libertarian thought as it drags me uncomfortably close to Charles Finney's over stuffed and under supported armchair of Pelagian discomfort. In any event, the issue was about choice and the inevitable question "Does man make moral choices?" I have found that unless the person is a hard determinist of an extreme position, every Calvinist will answer in the affirmative, that men make choices particularly choosing to obey the Gospel (if they happen to be regenerated in the Calvinist sense). I think I asked the question "What are the choices that such men have?" to which the reply was "limited or "very limited". Aside from not being an answer to the question, it also revealed a mindset that is common when logic interferes with one's presuppositions. This person could not or would not allow himself to address the question. An answer to the question would have required at least a provision for an alternative. To choose "A", there must be at a minimum one alternative to decline otherwise it was not a choice. So I am left to ask my Calvinist friends "What is the alternative to choosing to obey the Gospel if you truly believe man chooses to do so?"

To be fair, I must state that I believe every man who chooses to obey the Gospel may also choose not to do so and most who hear the Word of God choose the latter. It is this truth that denies the doctrine of irresistible grace and presents the quandary Calvinists place themselves in when they state that men choose while at the same time affirm their doctrine of irresistible grace. The two thoughts are not compatible.

Sunday, January 13, 2008


By Whose Stripes Ye Were Healed

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (1Pe 2:24 AV)

This wondrous statement carries such importance in our Christian lives that to understate it is to do an injustice to the faith we live. It was the passion of Christ that brought life to each of us, restoring our spiritually dead condition to that of a healed servant of God whose every thought should now turn to the things of God. We were healed of every spiritual affliction in that moment that faith brought us into the Kingdom of God. The Apostle Peter was teaching the saints through his epistle to endure and trust completely in what Christ had done for them. The particular verse above comes near the end of a passage encouraging obedience and humility toward whatever powers we find ourselves under all the while knowing that while we may suffer indignities as servants of Christ, we can be comforted in knowing that Jesus suffered worse and fully for our benefit. It was this suffering endured by Christ that healed us through the faith we have in Him.

Lately I have been heatedly engaged in a running dispute with a Calvinist fellow who has taken upon himself the disingenuous task of subjecting this passage as a support for the unique notion that Jesus performed the actual work of healing all elect souls at Calvary 2,000 years ago before any of us ever existed. Aside from the Gnostic inclinations of such a theory, the idea lends itself to the doctrine of a pre-existent soul or at a minimum a healing occurring in the past that is only effectively manifested when one is saved. Further, when pressed on the matter, identifying what specifically was healed at that time becomes a gymnastics exercise in illogic finally settling on "mystery" as the only answer that can be submitted. Of course this doctrine the fine gentleman is promoting is silly at best and heretical if carried to its logical end. We know what we were healed of when we were saved and there is no mystery in that knowledge. We know as well that the doctrine of a pre-existent soul has no scriptural basis except among the Mormon fellows and other various cultic entities. Now, I cannot state with clarity that the Calvinist with whom I was conversing endorses the pre-existence of the soul for the discussion meandered into a time and eternity exploration and the topic soon muddied into a tangled morass. In any event I am certain we will not see eye to eye on this matter and I have resolved to let the matter go between us. However, it may be profitable to formulate a proper Christian exposition on the passage to offer a sound Christian understanding. Suffice to state however that such a doctrine as employed by this fellow offers no legitimate support for his Limited Atonement position (that being the true motive for his eclectic manner).

Saturday, January 12, 2008


Is Jesus Blood Wasted On Those Not Saved?

It has been some time since posting to this blog having abandoned it in a manner of speaking. Hopefully, I can make better use of the resource in the coming months. While perusing several threads on the Arminian-Calvinist board on CARM I came across a somewhat rhetorical question presented by one of the Calvinist participants. It was asked in response to an Arminian challenge to a posting related to limited atonement. These sorts of arguments are a routine occurrence on the board as are the standard rhetorical replies. However there was a response to the question that struck me as absolutely wonderful and I cannot get it out of the way without first offering some thoughts on the matter.

The question was "Is Jesus' blood wasted on those not saved?" This is not the first time I had seen the question asked nor will it be the last. I can think of several occurrences over the years where that question or one similar had been asked as if the question itself was a showstopper, a ringer if you will that is intended to bring to a grinding halt any intellectual challenge of one's opinion. Another participant answered the question with a question of his own. "How much of Jesus' blood was needed to save just you?" Now, Calvinists have long argued that if the atonement is not limited in some fashion, it must logically follow that Jesus either failed in his mission or some aspect of His finished work was wasted on those not intended to benefit from that work. The initial question was an extension of that common argument. Yet, by turning the question around, the premise of the original inquirer is stripped of any importance. How is a single drop of Christ blood wasted if it is applied to you and I?

The clear answer to the second question is "all of it". Yes, all of Jesus Christ's blood was needed to save just one single soul without a single drop of it going to waste. Whether for one or one hundred million souls, every single ounce or drop of the shed blood of the Lamb of God was put to a perfecting use. Not a single spec of His poured out life left His body without being applied for the benefit of mankind. Now, we can argue limited atonement vs. unlimited atonement until the second advent of Christ and I am sure we will however whether unlimited or not, the blood of Christ is not wasted under either opinion.

This is often the case with rhetorical devices employed against rational discourse. Such questions make for a good sound bite in a debate format but as the reply demonstrated they fall just as quickly and loudly as when uttered.

Thursday, January 04, 2007


Divorce & Remarriage Among Christians

From the start I acknowledge that I hold to a minority position in today's church regarding remarriage. However I do believe the body of scripture supports my opposition to Christian remarriage as long as the prior spouse is still alive. In any event, this is not considered an essential doctrine in my view and I would not let this interfere in my fellowship with the saints of God.

If I could identify any issue that offers widespread discomfort in the modern church that even pastors themselves shun from an honest and open dialogue it might be the issue of marriage and divorce in the church, especially the issue of remarriage. There are so many divorced and remarried people in society today that it is becoming very much the norm to be on a second or even a third marriage as opposed to the minority of couples who claim a lifelong bond to the same partner. This is especially true of the young and middle-aged and we find many of these same people turning to Christ. Looking at a ministry I once attended I can only guess unfairly at how many people among the congregation as well as among the elders and deacons have divorced and remarried. In all fairness I suspect many of them remarried before being saved. Yet, if I listen to the teachings among many churches today, what I hear is the justification of remarriage regardless of circumstances it seems.

Lets ask ourselves what marriage is from a biblical perspective. God demonstrates a fundamental purpose of matrimony in Genesis. It is not good for man to be alone, He tells us. So much so that God created woman from man to be a helpmate for him. Now if the relationship were to stop there we might suppose that there would be no great matter of concern which woman we have as a helpmate or when but the Lord reveals something more profound about this relationship. A man and a woman leave their parents and they become one with another. Once joined in this fashion, they are one in a spiritual union. In fact God shows us a wonderful revelation concerning this matrimony. What is the saint who is in Christ? Is he not one with the Lord in this sense? When we begin examining various words we take for granted in the bible sometimes we can marvel at what is revealed. Every child of God who walks faithfully in His light and in His truth has a fellowship with Him that cannot be understood by the world. "While fellowship is expressed in several different words throughout scripture I think one of the better choices is the Greek term koinonia which means the share which one has in anything, participation, intercourse, intimacy. It is used in 1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. " That word koinonia means a lot. It even refers to intercourse which in a matrimonial relationship is an act or closeness that is about as personal as a relationship can be. Now I know some folks might squirm a bit to relate spiritual fellowship with Christ in such a manner but that is just the carnal man thinking in place of the spiritual. I am not referring to a physical act when I make mention of this in regard to fellowship, instead I am pointing out the degree or magnitude of the personal nature of this fellowship, this oneness with Jesus Christ. So in this sense, matrimony itself was established as not only a personal comfort for men and women with regard to companionship but also as a shadow of the relationship we are to have with Christ, with God Himself.

One of the most difficult things to settle amicably with regard to this issue is a proper understanding of God's desires. It is far easier to settle or reconcile our own desires especially when we view them from our fleshly or selfish motives. We all would like to believe that God wants us to have whatever makes us happy without realizing that sometimes to be happy in a carnal sense is to throw an incendiary upon a simmering fire. God desires that we have one wife or husband. That is what He desired from the very beginning. Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. The scriptures also tell us Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: While the excesses the Lord allowed under the law might seem reasonable even in this age, we are held to a higher spiritual standard, that found in the spirit of the law, the actual intent and purpose of God's law which is that a man and a woman come together and become one flesh. What is the mindset we face today among men and women both in circumstances associated with this quandary and as bystanders and observers of this theological question? Most often I hear the declaration that God would not want any of us to go through life without a spouse, that God would never want us to remain with a spouse who has abused us, that Jesus would never require a woman to remain with a husband who is not compatible. Yet when we test the Word, what do we find? Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Not only do we find this, but we find it repeated elsewhere in scripture. Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Usually when the Holy Spirit repeats something it is to be taken seriously. Now I don't see additional reasons for divorce granted here other than for fornication which in the context of the passage is referring to a lifestyle of specific sins. The Lord was not referring to specific individual acts of sin nor was He referring to a wide plethora of actions that could constitute fornication in a spiritual sense such as spiritual idolatry. The Lord was referring to a lifestyle of specific sins, sexual sins that would place a spouse in an impossible position of being one with a husband or wife AND a harlot or fornicator. This is spiritually unacceptable and therefore grounds for divorce. Now what are the circumstances of a woman who has divorced her husband due to a lifestyle of fornication?

Most modern pastors and teachers turn to the marriage chapter in the bible, 1 Corinthians chapter seven. I am not different in this case. It is a wonderful instruction and unsettling for those who preach remarriage to their congregations. In this chapter, Paul the Apostle is instructing on the position of marriage and it's expectations within Christian settings. Let me point out the obvious. It is not written to the unsaved. The unsaved are heavy duty sinners, expert fornicators and often remarried without so much as a second thought unless it crowds upon selfish motives. No, Paul is addressing saints in this instruction and these instructions are poignant. If a saved woman is married to an unsaved man who is inclined to live with her, then let her stay with him, Paul instructs. Otherwise she is free if the spouse departs. I don’t think there is much disagreement with this teaching. The scriptures tell us 1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. This where we run into trouble. The modern church is full of pastors and laity who have taken this "not under bondage' passage and given it license for remarriage. How they missed what came before that passage is bewildering. 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. What are the two choices the Lord has offered to a divorced woman? Remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband. What did Jesus say about divorce earlier? Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Why would any pastor tell anybody to go ahead and remarry when it is so clear that doing so causes adultery? I suggest it is pure selfish motive. In the Old Testament we discover that even under the permissiveness of the law a husband could not remarry his former wife after she had joined to another man. Why? Because she had defiled herself (Deut 24:4). The difficult thing to grasp here is not the clear intention of scripture. Pastors and teachers have long misinterpreted scripture out of convenience or tradition or even ignorant haste. The difficulty here is explaining why God does not sanction remarriage. Perhaps it is best explained by stating a clear character trait of God. He hates divorce! Malachi 2:15-16 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. If God hates divorce, why does the modern pastor offer such a conciliatory mindset to it and it's cousin, remarriage?

The pastors and teachers who teach these things have a burden to bear but what of the young woman who loves the Lord whose husband has just left her for a harlot? As scripture states she is under no bondage in this case meaning she is free of that particular yoke. Does this mean she is free to yoke herself again? The teachings of Paul in 1 Cor. 7 seem to suggest otherwise with the statement by the Lord that she is to remain unmarried or reconciled with her husband. This is a hard thing yet our salvation was a hard thing. If this young woman loves the Lord, let her turn her mind to the things of God. This is why divorce is so wicked and why God hates it so. It robs both partners. If we think this is difficult, we are thinking correctly. Sin carries a high price even among the saved. Look at the example of Aaron, the priest and brother of Moses. He lost two sons after they offered unholy or "strange" fire to the Lord yet the Lords instructions were clear. Lev 10:6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled. Aaron could not mourn nor grieve the loss of his sons. The Bible is full of examples where transgression is paid for with personal loss and grief, lifelong grief. Yet we listen and heed to calls for exception for young and middle-aged divorced who desire to mate again, to remarry, to become one with another. This is a church that needs to repent and understand that divorce is an expensive lifelong proposition that the Lord hates.

There is a particular area that I must address before concluding this letter. What of the saint who divorced prior to being saved? So far I have limited my comments to the actions and demands placed upon believers with regard to divorce and remarriage. The words Christ conveys to us are given to the body of Christ even though the penalty for disobedience will be fully borne by the unbelieving. The person who comes to Christ becomes a new creation in Christ. The old man, or person, is now dead. That person no longer exists. As such, we can apply the analogy the Holy Spirit used in the beginning of Romans chapter seven to that new creation in Christ. He or she has no past, no bondages, no chains which are carried over to the new creation. That person is certainly free to remarry so long as she does not yoke herself to unbelievers. I want to make this clear so that there is no mistaken belief that I am saying saints previously divorced in a sinful past are still obligated to law or the demands placed by the law. That is not the case. If you are a new saint in Christ who has divorced from a husband or wife while lost in the ways of the world, never despair. You are reborn. That old divorced you was buried with Him in crucifixion. Marry for the first time as a child of God if the Holy Spirit directs you. But bear in mind the lessons taught above regarding divorce and remarriage as it regards those in Christ. Those teachings then come into play.

Tuesday, January 02, 2007


Wesleyan Commonality with Calvinism vs. The Anti-Calvinist Rejection of Wesley’s Reconciliation

When the Remonstrant of the Low Countries formulated their essential disagreements with the practical application of Reformed faith doctrines they fueled a response that continues to resonate far from their place of dispute. The result has been a polarization of theological camps that has dominated the reactions and willingness of each to consider the other’s viewpoint and even in many cases to refuse an acknowledgement of the other’s position in Christ. It is beyond question a schism. While the quest could focus on anti-Arminianism and produce much the same result, viewing this from a Wesleyan perspective is more comfortable for the myself.

Much as been said of Arminius from both sides but one clear fact remains established in the historical record. He was viewed as being with orthodoxy on all matters pertaining to salvation. The matters of dispute between Arminius and Franciscus Gomarus, the senior theological professor at Leyden continued until his death however it is also established that Gomarus interviewed and examined Arminius prior to his acceptance at Leyden and found his theology acceptable and sound. The primary differences between the two men centered on predestination and reprobation, both of which were secondary to the theological basis of salvation. This is affirmed through the determination of the Dutch States General who as accounts describe, "The Calvinists wanted the matter settled by a general synod, but the States General would not have it. Oldenbarne veldt, the Dutch liberal statesman, in 1608 gave both opponents opportunity to defend their views before the supreme court, and a verdict was pronounced that since the controversy had no bearing upon the main points pertaining to salvation, each should bear with the other."(1) Obviously neither bore well with the other and the dispute continued beyond Arminius’ death in 1609.

As with Arminius, his followers have often suffered through an identifying process that was neither factual nor reasonable given the open declaration of their sentiments. The submittal of what is now widely viewed as the synopsis of Arminian theology consists of five articles, each addressing a matter of difference with respect to the particular teachings of the Reformed Church following the death of John Calvin. These Articles of Remonstrance are essentially acceptable to the Wesleyan position and were generally held by John Wesley who considered himself to be an Arminian. The Synod of Dordt produced a response to the Arminians that resulted in what is universally regarded among the Reformed Church as a canon declaration of belief with regard to the opposition. From consideration of the Remonstrant articles and the Dordt response an acronym of TULIP emerged to define the applicable definitions of the Dordt position in relationship to the stated Arminan position. It is this acronym that continues to fuel the schism today that also afflicted the church in Wesley’s day.

Wesley was noted in his opposition to this acronym TULIP that arose to identify the differences between Arminians and Calvinists however he was also wise enough to understand and articulate the agreement found between the two camps with regard to the biblical truths that pushed each party to formulate their opposing applications. Wesley was not in opposition to the ancient creeds and considered himself to be in full agreement with all matters of belief regarding salvation. His differences centered on the application of the depravity of man and the doctrines of justification by faith which were presented in the Calvinist viewpoint by the first two letters of the acronym. Wesley is on record as being opposed to the remaining three letters declaring them to be unbiblical on all points. In Wesley’s words,

"…The errors charged upon these (usually termed Arminians) by their opponents, are five: (a.) That they deny original sin; (b.) That they deny justification by faith; (c.) That they deny absolute predestination; (d.) That they deny the grace of God to be irresistible; and, (e.) That they affirm, a believer may fall from grace. With regard to the two first of these charges, they plead, Not Guilty. They are entirely false. No man that ever lived, not John Calvin himself, ever asserted either original sin, or justification by faith, in more strong, more clear and express terms, than Arminius has done. …But there is an undeniable difference between the Calvinists and Arminians, with regard to the three other questions. Here they divide; the former believe absolute, the latter only conditional, predestination. … The Calvinists hold, Secondly, that the saving grace of God is absolutely irresistible; …The Arminians hold, that although there may be some moments wherein the grace of God acts irresistibly, yet, in general, any man may resist, … The Calvinists hold, Thirdly, that a true believer in Christ cannot possibly fall from grace. The Arminians hold, that a true believer may "make shipwreck of faith and a good conscience …" (2).

To understand why Wesley agreed with the underlying biblical truth of the first two, the Arminian articles need to be examined.The first article translated from Latin is the following:

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ His Son, before the foundations of the world were laid, determined to save, out of the human race which had fallen into sin, in Christ, for Christ's sake and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on the same His Son and shall through the same grace persevere in this same faith and obedience of faith even to the end; and on the other hand to leave under sin and wrath the contumacious and unbelieving and to condemn them as aliens from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36, and other passages of Scripture.

It was this particular article that compelled Reformed churchmen to establish the Total Depravity of Man as represented in the Acronym TULIP using the determinations of the Synod of Dordt with regard to this question. While Wesley certainly disagreed with the application of total depravity, he agreed man was depraved and brought that understanding into a proper light by affirming "original sin" for which Arminians were being falsely accused of denying. In this sense with regard to the underlying biblical assertions of original sin by which man is depraved, Wesley concurred with the Calvinist belief.

The second article provided below was the essential driver that brought the Reformed churchmen to respond with the second point of TULIP, Unconditional Election, also fueled by the determinations of Dordt.

That, accordingly, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that He has obtained for all, by His death on the cross, reconciliation and remission of sins; yet so that no one is partaker of this remission except the believers .

Wesley recognized that the charge of denying justification by faith through the TULIP response to this second article was completely false and he affirmed his agreement with the Reformed Church with regard to said justification by faith. With regard to the three remaining points of TULIP, Wesley would not concur with a biblical basis for any. This brings us to the place where zealotry on both sides of the issues that divide the church result in an inability to reconcile the teachings of Wesley, Calvin, the Reformers and the Wesleyan church of today. The issues have been polarized into an either/or debate over strict adherence to TULIP, an outlook that was never the litmus test of fellowship from the perspective of John Wesley nor with his friend George Whitefield. It is clearly established through the writings of Wesley that he opposed TULIP as applied doctrine on it’s whole and opposed the latter three points of TULIP on grounds of it being unbiblical. But the question must be asked "Is TULIP the summation of all things Calvinistic?". In the mindset of zealotry, there is nothing beyond TULIP with regard to Calvinism. When the anti-Calvinist is shown that Wesley found agreement with the Reformed on certain aspects of the acronym, the response has been one of absolutes. In the zealot mindset it must be shown that he opposed "Total Depravity" and "Unconditional Election" before any acceptance of Wesley’s teaching will be admitted. This results in the infamous "catch-22" position for agreeing to the notion that Wesley rejected the Calvinist application of Depravity and Unconditional Election which is indeed true and this truth is then used to reject the clear teaching that he agreed to the theological truths that underlie both of those misapplications. The anti-Arminians do precisely the same thing with the same articles. They accuse Arminians of rejecting original sin and denying justification by faith. This is the price of zealotry in any theological discussion, fair understanding of the agreements and disagreements is shrouded in a bias that disallows any intellectual grasp of similarity. It becomes a battle of absolutes. In a return to the question concerning the summation of Calvinism or for that matter Wesleyanism, there are other discussions that need to come into play however from the perspective of the zealot other questions and matters have no place in the discussion. He will see them as distractions from his disagreement thereby ignoring or misrepresenting them.

An examination of Creeds lends confirmation to the inappropriateness of the anti-Calvinist’s paradigm. If Wesleyans and Calvinists are placed alongside one another and measured by adherence to the Nicene creed both are found to be in perfect agreement. If both are placed alongside one another and measured against the apostolic teachings with regard to salvation, the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ perfect agreement is found! All this agreement is set aside in a zealous battle of absolutes defined by a religious application or rejection of a set of letters, TULIP. The same zealot will refuse fellowship rather than allow agreement to force him to relinquish any ground in this battle.

Perhaps the words of Wesley himself are appropriate to close.

"…And Arminians have as much right to be angry at Calvinists, as Calvinists have to be angry at Arminians. John Calvin was a pious, learned, sensible man; and so was James Harmens. Many Calvinists are pious, learned, sensible men; and so are many Arminians. Only the former hold absolute predestination; the latter, conditional. One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example! " (3)


(1) ARMINIUS, JACOBUS, New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. I: Aachen - Basilians
(2) "The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace" , John Wesley taken from the Thomas Jackson edition of The Works of John Wesley, 1872
(3) Ibid

Monday, January 01, 2007


Is The Promotion of the TULIP Gospel an Antichrist Endeavor?

Suppose a man approached a poor soul and presented the following thinking it contained the power of the LORD in it's message.

God so loved a very few of His creation and knowing every man is totally corrupt He would unconditionally elect those few individuals to a certain salvation. Having already elected these few souls, He sent His own Son to die a death on the Cross at Calvary that would only be intended for those elect souls. Nobody else could ever benefit given God predestined the lost souls for the purpose of damnation. That atonement saves those elected to salvation and seals the condemnation of those predestined to damnation. This expressed grace of God cannot be resisted by those He elected nor can it be frustrated. For those whom God elected and Christ died for, they are dragged willingly into the Kingdom of God and persevere eternally. ... you sir might be one of those few that God loves.

Now of course no moderate Calvinist would present such a scenario to anybody and it is not the moderate Calvinist who steps into the error of teaching TULIP as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the "high" Calvinist or "hyper-Calvinist" who holds to the belief that his systematic view is what saves. Even with the hyper-Calvinist, it is unlikely the above example would ever be presented. Instead, the TULIP Gospel proponent is content to declare Christ the savior of the "world" and leave it at that. The concern rises when he is pressed on what he believes is the salvific message of Christ and it is at this point that his systematic theology takes precedence over the following declaration by the Apostle Paul.

“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” (Ro 10:8-11 AVRLE)

It needs to be stated that the issue over the error of the TULIP Gospel is not centered on whether or not TULIP is an accurate presentation of Christian soteriology. This debate has raged for centuries with no likely settlement as long as the LORD tarries. Instead the issue is over what message is proclaimed with regard to Jesus Christ. The above words of Paul state clearly what he preached and in that message is no mention of Reformed sytematic theology nor is there an opposing Wesleyan soteriology (although I believe the Wesleyan stands much closer to this passage than does the Reformed). So can it be stated that promoting the TULIP Gospel is an antichrist endeavor? A straight forward question must be asked. Is TULIP what Paul preached with regard to the Word of Faith, for Salvation? Clearly it is not in accord with Romans 10:8-11 and if separate from that declaration it can be nothing but what Paul refers to as another Gospel (II Cor 11). If such is the case, the TULIP gospel is indeed an antichrist declaration.

Sunday, December 31, 2006



Home Based Fellowships ...

I have been giving this topic some thought recently after encountering a rather strong anti-church ideology on the CARM discussion board dealing with Home Fellowships. The gathering of Christians in a home setting has a history as long as Christianity itself with the saints gathering in homes for the breaking of bread and observance of the LORD's supper. There are groups today who gather in their homes for a myriad of purposes from cell group bible study to full praise and worship services. Oftentimes, these gatherings are driven by a theological unity among it's members that is felt to be lacking in mainstream churches. These fellowships over doctrinal issues have often resulted in denominations springing forth and growing into, ironically, the impetus for forming new smaller home fellowships. John Wesley and like minded souls seeking a return to a more methodical and dedicated witness and daily living began meeting in small groups with the hope of pursuing a reform of Anglican practices and focus. Today we have an assortment of Wesleyan influenced denominations that claim John Wesley's theological outlook as the basis for their existence. Ironically, the conservative Confessing Movement has taken the same approach Mr. Wesley took centuries earlier in an attempt to bring the United Methodist Church back to a more sure footing. I wish them the greatest success in doing so.

The Home Church or Fellowship certainly has a place in the body of Christ especially when saints find themselves in circumstances where a Calvary focused church fellowship is lacking. Persecuted Christians the world over have always gathered in small home settings and sometimes in secluded and secret places to avoid detection and harrassment. The Christians in Rome during the 1st and 2nd Centuries worshipped in the catacombs to avoid detection. The evidence of this remains today. Chinese Christians today as well as those in other Communist countries continue to worship is secret, small gatherings as do many Christians in Islamic dominated societies.

However, there is another element at work in the home church movement. It is a movement among an assortment of followers expressing a distrust of the organized church that is beginning to cause concern. I should really say it continues to cause concern for the problem has long been with us. Joseph Smith was one who rejected the organized church and out of his small gatherings grew the modern Mormon church today. Various other cult groups formed in a similar manner. The element on CARM that seems troublesome focuses on the organized church or incorporated church and rejects the office of pastor. The organized church or denomination is viewed as pagan and unscriptural yet examples and substantiation are sorely lacking. I have posed a couple of questions to which a suitable answer is not forthcoming. In particular I ask:

Please define "true fellowship" and indicate how the organized church is failing in that regard. How is your collection of timbers and sticks a better gathering of fellowship than your neighbor across the street?

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=34248

While I am not a regular on that particular discusison board I am interested in where this discussion might go and will followup on any reasonable replies offered.

Tuesday, December 21, 2004


Calvin Taught "Double Predestination"

In various discussions with some of my Reformed Church brethren a central focal point has often been the issue of double predestination or the doctrines of reprobation as some have phrased it. While some have expressed few if any reservations regarding this doctrine, others have taken a stand contrary to the early reformers position and deny that Calvinists, or at least the moderate variety of their persuasion, hold to such a doctrine.

In the words of John Calvin:

"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms,but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. And accordingly, as each has been created for one of other of these ends, we say that he as been predestinated to life or to death" 1

From Calvin's perspective the doctrine of reprobation presented as men created for the express purpose of damnation is unavoidable if we take his writings at their prima facia value. Calvin placed himself on record as declaring anything short of such classed destruction to have been an act of promiscuity on the part of God. I realize I take a liberty here where others might object but Calvin's words themselves lend credibility to what is suggested.

"We shall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows from the free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquainted with his eternal election, the grace of God being illustrated by the contrast, viz., that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what he denies to others. It is plain how greatly ignorance of this principle detracts from the glory of God, and impairs true humility." 2

Whether or not one agrees with Calvin is of another matter however it is an intellectually disingenious approach to suggest the Calvinist doctrines of election, predestination or reprobation do not include God's pleasure in glorifying Himself by way of purposely creating men for destruction. Knowing that God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked does little to distance the modern Calvinist from the legacy of his namesake. The contradiction remains between those Calvinists who deny double predestination and the namesake who defines it with his own writings.



http://www.smartlink.net/~douglas/calvin/bk3ch21.html




1 John Calvin, Institutes book III ch 21
2 Ibid