See that guy trying to put that square peg into that round hole? I think he's gone coo coo for cocoa puffs!
I think William Lane Craig has provided another potential use of the phrase with his comments regarding Calvinist divine determinism that might look something like this.See that guy trying to square his universal divine determinism with scripture and sound reason? I think he's gone coo coo for cocoa puffs!
From Craig's Website:
Universal causal determinism cannot be rationally affirmed. There is a sort of dizzying, self-defeating character to determinism. For if one comes to believe that determinism is true, one has to believe that the reason he has come to believe it is simply that he was determined to do so. One has not in fact been able to weigh the arguments pro and con and freely make up one’s mind on that basis. The difference between the person who weighs the arguments for determinism and rejects them and the person who weighs them and accepts them is wholly that one was determined by causal factors outside himself to believe and the other not to believe. When you come to realize that your decision to believe in determinism was itself determined and that even your present realization of that fact right now is likewise determined, a sort of vertigo sets in, for everything that you think, even this very thought itself, is outside your control. Determinism could be true; but it is very hard to see how it could ever be rationally affirmed, since its affirmation undermines the rationality of its affirmation.
Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism-vs-calvinism#ixzz2Hal0jd9x
34 comments:
I don't get to his website but about six months ago someone put me on to his pod casts. I can't keep up but they are interesting and free. They are great for listening to while walking or driving.
Grace and peace.
I will have to consider doing that. I listened to one some time ago and thought it was pretty interesting.
Help required at http://www.christianforums.com/f83/
Defenders of the true faith are in a minority on this calvinist recruiting forum.
Please join up and help out the beleaguered Christians there.
I have not participated on CF for some time now (until today) because the moderation struck me as very heavy handed at the time.
Moderation is hard against non Calvinists.
On the Soteriology board most non Calvinists get ganged up on , goaded and bated. If they respond to it they get banned.
So please help us out defending the truth of Jesus Christ. Not John Calvin
Moderation is hard against non Calvinists.
On the Soteriology board most non Calvinists get ganged up on , goaded and bated. If they respond to it they get banned.
So please help us out defending the truth of Jesus Christ. Not John Calvin
Posting in such environments requires discipline to avoid the heavy hand. I have encountered similar circumstances on CARM at times and it causes me to temper some of my remarks.
That said, the Soteriology board seems to be populated predominantly with Calvinists and Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian oriented people. There is little discussion of true Arminian doctrine. I have replied a few times over the past couple of days although I am not sure what I might gain from it.
What name do you post under on CF?
I don't post anymore as I have been banned.
I am trying to get support for the few genuine Arminians there. I feel it is important to spread God's TRUE word.
It is a noble cause trying to defend Arminians on CF soteriology. However it is a closet Calvinist forum. The moderator on Soteriology is a hard liner.
As Anonymous has said, its purpose is to recruit Christians into Calvinism. Not good IMO but we live in a democracy.
I am being careful in how I respond. I already replied back to the hammster that since he is an active moderator I would not likely engage him in discussions. His response was that he would use a proxy to engage me. I found that a rather dishonest approach. Nontheless I will keep your caution in view.
Dishonest approach ! Oh yes.
Hammster is a prime example. Just do a search of his posts. One liners goading and baiting. Never answering a question, ever. Never mind, he is a nobody who has been given a bit of power and is now abusing it. Any Non Calvinist who goes up against hammy will find his posts deleted, altered or just misrepresented.
The proxy Calvinist is 'Griff'. This avatar is used to wind up non Calvinists.
All in all most Christians are NOT Calvinists. Orthodox, Catholic, most protestants and so forth. All of these get labelled pelegian by the wind up team. One of the reasons is to get add clicks for the CF revenue. Another is to recruit Calvinist into the US free republic political movement.
Google free republic and check out the names with the avatars on CF. Eye opening.
The only reason genuine Christians post on soteriology is to defend the Bible as they are called to do.
Please help them out.
I would be interested to know if you are 'travelah' on CF.
Also if you are in the UK.
Yes, I post as travelah although I am not in UK. I am US.
Just curious with the web address "http://travelah.blogspot.co.uk/". If you want to take hammsrer on beware that he is very slippery. He uses several tactics :
1. When he is lost he accuses his opponent of deflection.
2. He uses short one liners to lead his opposition up the swany river.
3. He always asks questions that lead away from the OP as his purpose is to promote calvinism.
4. If you get under his skin he will ban you as he cannot debate
5.Though he is not a member of the free republic his pals are : nobdysfool, frumanch,drstevj. (free republic is a calvinist only outfit that uses dodgy methods to swing political votes their way), Free republic use CF and other sites as a recruiting ground.
6. When you have proved your point using scripture and/or a thologian's writing hammster will back off and a proxy ( skala )will make you go over it again.
7. The object of these calvies is to frustrate Christians so they will hopefully go away.
8.hammy and skala will contradict themselves without shame. The best way to stop wasting a load of effort is to do a search and save all there posts to a file for easy reference. Only need to go back a little as most threads are just repeats.
9 Particularly with hammy, keep it short. I found it best to make an assertion. hammy would then denounce it then my next post will be half a dozen proof texts.
10. Hammy does not know much about calvinism. Hence he is easy to shoot down. That is why so many get banned.
Hope this helps. If you have any friends the it would be good to have them join up to keep the momentum Biblical.
FWIE
The CF soteriology board is sponsored by a group of people which gives them extra privileges.
One of the chiefs posted this :
"
Posted by nobdysfool
To me, it has just become an exciting, fun challenge. I honed my Calvinist teeth in Free Republic, where there was a time when the Religion Forum was a rollicking, free-for-all, a regular punch-fest.
I learned how to take it, and how to give it. I learned how to insult someone subtly, how to read someone’s pedigree nicely, and how to cut to the heart of a matter. As I said, it was a verbal punch-fest, so these wimps in Soteriology wouldn’t have lasted a day there. I can’t use but maybe 20% of the methods I learned, or I would be perma-banned in less than a day. As it is, I have had action against me by the mods here, some deserved, and some not."
It caused a lot of commotion when it reappeared here
http://www.fether.net/2011/11/21/the-hamster-wheel/
An assault in progress...Christianforums.com/soteriology
by nobdysfool
It seems that the anti-Calvinists have decided to launch an all-out assault on Calvinists in the Soteriology forum. Many of us Calvinists have decided to just sit back and let them run with it for a while, and true to form, they have begun making fools out of themselves. They are trying to bait and goad the Calvinists, in the hopes that they can report us and remove some of us from the field. In that, they are failing miserably. The sheer amount of misinformation displayed is staggering!
It seems obvious to me that so much misinformation about Calvinism is being promoted because Calvinist theology is a true threat to the status quo of many churches in America, as well as the UK, Canada, and even Australia. And yet the predominate theological understanding of Christians in China, is Calvinist. China is a field ripe for harvest, there is a real hunger there, and the Calvinist teachings have taken root and have grown very quickly in China and the Far East.
So much for the claim by these yobs in the forum that Calvinism is a failed, false theology. They simply do not know what they're talking about. If it wasn't so sad, it would be comical....
nob,
I think you are bearing false witness, at least from my limited observations on that board. There seems to be a pattern by some of the Calvinists on that board to misconstrue the content and context of opponents posts. If there is a problem of misrepresentation, I maintain that is seems to be a problem among the Calvinists on the board who strike me as ignorant and unread of primary reformed sources. I have not encountered a soul yet who I thought had read anything significant by Calvin, Luther, Arminius and other early reformers. I could even think most of them haven't read a single thing by anybody.
As for Calvinists being a leading force on the evangelical field, I suggest they preach the gospel as Arminians and then attempt to indoctrinate as Calvinists. I also doubt the veracity of your claim. I have encountered too many dry dead bones Calvinist churches to take such a claim seriously.
To me, it has just become an exciting, fun challenge. I honed my Calvinist teeth in Free Republic, where there was a time when the Religion Forum was a rollicking, free-for-all, a regular punch-fest.
I learned how to take it, and how to give it. I learned how to insult someone subtly, how to read someone’s pedigree nicely, and how to cut to the heart of a matter. As I said, it was a verbal punch-fest, so these wimps in Soteriology wouldn’t have lasted a day there. I can’t use but maybe 20% of the methods I learned, or I would be perma-banned in less than a day. As it is, I have had action against me by the mods here, some deserved, and some not.
Nob,
It may have sharpened your Calvinism but it dulled your Christian charity.
In response to "Help required at http://www.christianforums.com/f83/"
"The Arminian God creates men He knows will end up in hell"
Question - Do the non elect have an opportunity to repent ? Calvinist Griff says no.
Calvinist hammster replies
"Anytime they hear the gospel, they have the opportunity to repent."
Response by calvinist proxy griff
So you believe the non-elect are able to repent?
Which is it ? this is an example of the muddle headed calvinist destroying peoples faith. Please join up and defend the true gospel.
Trouble is, I like a fight, which is why I often wade in over there (soteriology ). I find that the arguing keeps me mentally agile (ish) and I get to meet people who are in deep denial about their Calvinist beliefs, like MotherPrayer .
By the way, I'll bet there are more pipe smoking Calvinists than in any other doctrinal mindset. That's why we're laid back.
Skype™ paul.dean1955
http://crimsonleaf.co.uk
Looks like Deacon dean has nuked you
Anonymous Calvinist,
Only a Calvinist would state such a thing about a Calvinist who has to quote mine internet sources in an attempt to refute what he clearly demonstrated he does not understand.
Skala says "It's funny. All of the Calvinists here agree with eachother on everything. (yet are ill-informed)"
Wowsers AW - a genuine Calvinist cannot agree with hammsters who states "No man is denied an opportunity to be saved." When questioned hammy dodges around all over the place. Finally closes the thread when his foolishness shows up so much.
Talk about hypocrisy.
Wish I could take part but I have been banned as I am not a Calvinist.
Regards
Jack
Jack, as soon as you toss out supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism along with meticulous determination and compatibalism, all agreement among Calvinists goes flying out the window.
"Jack, as soon as you toss out supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism along with meticulous determination and compatibalism, all agreement among Calvinists goes flying out the window."
Absolutely right.
However this is way above the team on CF. It only matters as this is a public "Christian" forum. The reality is that soteriology is a recruiting ground for political activists to subvert democracy for fundamental republicanism - an of shot of hyper Presbyterianism.
Apart from freeping - i.e perverting democracy - these people have a devastating effect on new believers in Christ. Hence the efforts to take them down.
A.M. Mallett said...
"ack, as soon as you toss out supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism along with meticulous determination and compatibalism, all agreement among Calvinists goes flying out the window."
I see you guys are arguing about the word 'all' now.
Here is what Calvinist Spurgeon has to say
"----------------------------
Sermon
(No. 1516)
Delivered by
C. H. SPURGEON,
At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington
"God our Saviour; who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."—1 Timothy 2:3, 4.
What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm
----------------------
It is not only this part of the sermoin that blows apart calvinism. Especially the kind broadcast on CF.
I'd be obliged if this could be posted on CF as I am also banned for being an Arminian.
anon,
As soon as I post something by Spurgeon that contradicts their sectarian views I am almost certain to get the response of "We don't follow Spurgeon, we follow the BIBLE!".
So I have seen. Even though it was calvie Skala who started the thread "Spurgeon on Acts 13:48" !
The hypocrisy is staggering.
In thread "Elizabeth Elect and Robert Reprobate"' post 111 Calvie skala says "I'm pretty sure not single person on these forums has ever stated that if one thinks he is elect he is guaranteed eternal life."
Weird. What Calvinists has NOT stated this. Even Calvie hamster in the following states "The elect are guaranteed eternal life in both monergism and synergism."
Please someone help us all out with what calvinism is supposed to hold to.
Personally I think these guys are just playing games.
All the children of the world…
Red and yellow, black and white…
They are precious in His sight…
Jesus loves the little children of the world”
[B]Herman:[/B] Well, that song was quite obviously written by an Arminian
[B]Calvin[/B]: Why do you say that?
[B]Herman[/B]: Well, the song says that Jesus loves “all” the little children of the “world”.
That is what Arminians believe, that Christ died for all and loves the world in such a way that He truly desires all to believe in Christ and be saved.
Calvin: Oh, well you have just misunderstood the context of the song.
[B]Herman[/B]: What do you mean?
[B]Calvin[/B]: Well, the context plainly demonstrates that “[COLOR="Red"]all” doesn’t mean “every child without exception[/COLOR].”
[B]Herman:[/B] It doesn’t?
[B]Calvin[/B]: Of course not. Look at that one line that says, “Red and yellow, black and white”.
[B]Herman[/B]: O.K.
[B]Calvin[/B]: Well, it seems obvious to me that when he says “[COLOR="red"]all[/COLOR] the children of the world” he only means [COLOR="red"]all[/COLOR] the different colors of children in the world. You see, he is really concerned about racism and guarding against the false teaching that Jesus might only love red children and not any black children, etc.
[B]Herman[/B]: Is that right? I never realized that?
[B]Calvin[/B]: Well, most people don’t, but that is just because they pay no attention to context. That is why God gave us Reformed theologians to explain these things to us. I could give you a good book by a Calvinist where he spends about twenty pages explaining why “[COLOR="red"]all the children of the world“ [B]really means[/B] “only a relatively few[/COLOR] children from among all the various races of the world”.
[B]Herman[/B]: Wow, it is amazing to me that I never realized that before. I think I would like to read that book. Thank God he didn’t leave us on our own to interpret songs like this one or we might come to some really bizarre conclusions. I don’t know what we would ever do without those Reformed theologians you mentioned. I think from now on I will just read from them so I don’t misunderstand something else as I am obviously easily confused.
[B]Calvin[/B]: Absolutely. Just make sure you don’t put their writings above what the songs actually say while understanding that it is impossible to rightly understand what the songs actually say and mean without reading from them.
Herman[B]: Uh, sure. That makes sense. I think. Are you suggesting that they might be wrong about this song after all?
[B]Calvin[/B]: Of course not. They are right because that is what the verse plainly means when considered in context and you can be sure that the song plainly means that [COLOR="red"]because the Reformed theologians say so.[/COLOR] Got it?
[B]Herman[/B]: Yeah, I got it. Well, I’m off to buy some of those books you recommended. Thanks for all your help. Imagine, if I had never talked to you I would have just gone right on [COLOR="red"]foolishly believing [/COLOR]that the song was [COLOR="red"]saying that Jesus actually loved “all” the children of the “world”[/COLOR].
[B]Calvin:[/B] No problem. That’s what I’m here for.
Christianforums.com
[I]Posted by KentuckyFried
Has the Holy Spirit returned to dwell in Soteriology ?
Probably not BUT.
Despite tremendous abuse : Name calling, false allegations, baiting, insults and all the rest of the stuff that goes on in the vipers den, a marvelous work is in progress and can be witnessed.
Poster FG2 has been battling alone, succeeding in showing with exceeding skill and patience and politeness the errors of those who attack him : not answering his question, not debating the OP but personal and hypocritical attacks.
All he has done is ask one question. Despite over 400 replies, his adversaries are still ducking and diving, dodging and the rest.
Please give this faithful man of God some support, if only a PM.[/I]
I had a similar PM.
May I request you pass it around as I have no doubt that FG2 is doing a superb job defending the gospel in Soteriology and semper reformanda.
I know many posters who have succumbed to the abuse, replied and then got banned. FG2 is holding up astonishingly well despite so many attackers.
Please at least PM him to give encouragement.
Regards
Hmmm...so you think the solution to your "problem" is to harass, and engage in character assassination, because you can't win in the field of debate....how Christian of you! (please note the sarcasm). And then you post things under the names of those you disagree with, taken out of context, if not outright made up (as is the case with some of the posts I'm accused of posting), which amounts to lying and bearing false witness, and you think God will bless your efforts?
Anon,
I have no idea what you are referring to.
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